๐Ÿ”Ž
 Remote Jobs 1 Chat Travel Insurance Community Dating Hire Remotely 
  Home  Your profileโš™๏ธ  Settingsโค๏ธ  My wish list
๐Ÿก  Cities๐Ÿ‡ณ๐Ÿ‡ฑ  Countries๐ŸŒ  Community๐Ÿ‘‹  Dating New๐Ÿœ  Explore๐Ÿ’ฌ  Chat๐Ÿ—ฏ  Forum
๐Ÿ“ธ  Vote on photos๐Ÿ’ก  Request features๐Ÿ”ฎ  Random place๐Ÿ’ธ  Retirement (FIRE)๐Ÿ”Œ  Bali sea cable status๐ŸŒค  Climate finder New๐Ÿ“Š  Travel trends๐Ÿก  Real estate overseasโ›„๏ธ Escape the Winter๐Ÿฆ  Corona data
๐Ÿ‘ฉโ€๐Ÿ’ป  Remote jobsโœˆ๏ธ  Airlines๐Ÿ—บ  Neighborhoods๐Ÿ  Coworkations๐Ÿฌ  Coworking spaces๐Ÿ”–  Incorporate๐Ÿš‘  Nomad Insurance
๐Ÿ“ฃ  Advertise๐Ÿ™Œ  Open Startup๐Ÿ’  Help
Freelance Chat

All Channels
Join Nomad List to chat
# _covid1911min# _relationships36min# mexico46min# _flying52min# _coders53min# _taxes-us1h# _gear2h# _fitness2h# ___general2h# _housing3h# bulgaria4h# _food4h# _outdoors4h# _crypto6h# argentina6h# thailand6h# vietnam6h# malaysia7h# india8h# japan9h# taiwan10h# russia10h# _money11h# bali13h# romania15h# __roll-call15h# new-zealand20h# sweden1d# _books1d# _startups1d# _photography1d# colombia1d# spain2d# _taxes-intl2d# chiang-mai2d# china2d# _pets2d# _jobs-talk2d# chile2d# canada2d# singapore3d# montreal3d# greece3d# toronto3d# _insurance3d# philippines3d# lisbon4d# switzerland4d# _freelance4d# united-states4d# _overland-travel4d# _productivity4d# budapest4d# _politics5d# indonesia5d# portugal5d# brazil5d# _bargain-travel5d# ukraine6d# berlin6d# germany6d# south-africa6d# italy6d# _show-and-tell6d# _javascript7d# australia7d# georgia7d# san-francisco8d# medellin9d# _language-learning9d# _music10d# london10d# turkey11d# middle-east11d# peru12d# _legal12d# new-york-city12d# myanmar13d# las-palmas14d# kuala-lumpur16d# panama16d# poland17d# costa-rica17d# south-korea17d# paris17d# united-kingdom18d# cambodia18d# hong-kong18d# serbia19d# europe19d# _design20d# egypt20d# austin23d# prague23d# croatia24d# _marketing24d# laos27d# tel-aviv27d# uruguay27d# estonia28d# _lgbt30d# _podcasts1mo# netherlands1mo# puerto-rico1mo# africa1mo# ireland1mo# sri-lanka1mo# france1mo# amsterdam1mo# _parents1mo# israel1mo# guatemala1mo# morocco2mo# _ruby2mo# miami2mo# nicaragua2mo# venezuela2mo# denmark2mo# slovakia2mo# _corona2mo# cuba2mo# north-korea2mo# kazakhstan2mo# malta2mo# qatar2mo# lithuania2mo# ecuador2mo# dominican-republic3mo# slovenia3mo# cyprus3mo# __jobs3mo
rdoiglwxt4d
Does the bonus and hourly represent a true bonus vs your normal hourly multiplied by the hours?
cdphwggnl4d
How are scope changes handled in terms of the deliverable date?
avxhggmbo4d
Their initial offer of hourly + bonus does not fully compensate. Iโ€™ll be proposing numbers that do, plus some to account for my risk. I think scope changes are something that weโ€™ll need to discuss and not something I have a solution in mind to ๐Ÿค”
jbxehpjsa4d
Scope changes are not usually things with this team that have been an issue. But you never know, better to have it written down.
rjwkxvixvdqdx4d
Is your hourly too high because they don't want to spend that money, or because they have a cap they're working around with you via the bonus prop?
vlumfhqhk4d
Itโ€™s too high because they donโ€™t have justification for that expense if they canโ€™t market and demo with this feature in Q3.
mlqfssyhejvke4d
Don't go overboard on process but Agile handles this well.
vdtmvssojmgtp4d
Oh I wouldn't take that job then
ovvkyosdiwgji4d
They're putting risk on you but not allowing you enough control of the outcome
edqdlygco4d
What do you mean control of the outcome?
cqxomxobz4d
It sounds high risk. If the market changes and they canโ€™t launch they may pressure people into rejecting your delivery
mslfgtvmg4d
I actually had to do this to a shady vendor, we found โ€œproblemsโ€ everywhere because the vendor was a jerk, so we just slow rolled them until they breached the agreement.
crrutvunacoxs4d
^ this
cfvponsbhpbdi4d
And if it does work out, they capture all the upside
bfztisvrd4d
I would price your risk, without knowing special circumstances, at 1.75x
nsrkjfljsgfwn4d
Except maybe your little bonus, which they could just stiff you on
kvpgtvami4d
Assuming a contract you get reviewed by a real lawyer. Otherwise, 3x
fmzdltzop4d
Can you do it faster?
diwmyeztrjtpd4d
I don't think I'd want to work with a company that proposed this arrangement even if the terms were adjusted in my favor
tmtenabywzwen4d
I don't trust them
upnnkuhnm4d
Iโ€™ve had these kinds of deals work out fine. But itโ€™s all about the details
ykzgmtfyw4d
I mean the hourly rate isnโ€™t _that_ low to Justify charging 3x :P
quazfdbtb4d
Right now is not the time to refuse work unless itโ€™s actually a bad deal
gqcyvqkfyxfdj4d
True, true
iylmyycpnryya4d
But I'm quite sensitive to bad deals and can smell them coming
kthylwdrqtkad4d
Usually
nvppldurd4d
Without even seeing the contract?
siebifogj4d
If so, kudos
cqjszyoqe4d
Yea I mean if I do 1.25x I trust the people enough to go through with it. But these are good points and the kind of things to think of I was looking for forced rejection and scope creep
ijedcejhmtufq4d
It's not about the contract, it sounds like a company who wants something for nothing and doesn't want to be straight up
ecnywkhbpqxhj4d
I'd rather do no work than free work even in hard times
vwyikzvfeqkux4d
It sounds to me like these guys don't have money and want to take you down with them
igfladcmi4d
I donโ€™t see it that harshly
hacrvsbpl4d
I mean, they do have money
rexmphfzvqpgk4d
Then they can pay you
gdnhuibkkbqll4d
End of story
xlnourcgo4d
I see a pay for performance deal with a cherry, except the cherry is probably too small for the risk.
vcdmixuee4d
There you go... one of us is right
mvnyphksv4d
You get to pick which
dlskjjldh4d
๐Ÿ˜‚
vqqwjxifzifbb4d
The prospect gets to pick which lol
mydthtpte4d
I think they just donโ€™t want to end up paying more than they earned is the thing. And if they donโ€™t get it by September then they earn less. They can do it themselves if it goes much longer than that. But I can do it faster
bgnpzvhhy4d
๐Ÿฟ
pdxkwvnmx4d
Can you do it significantly faster than the proposed deadline?
dektltxfcsvoo4d
You can't do it faster if they move the goalposts and tie you up with internal bullshit
deynktbanddnc4d
You don't know if that will happen
lthhvvsrb4d
I can do about 1/3 faster than the proposed deadline.
iabnestoq4d
Like, 2 months instead of 3
onajldsuvfqdi4d
Suuuure
yryxwfxiotjlh4d
I think that a lot too
kpkoasbug4d
And to hcrpomtfas โ€˜s point, I currently donโ€™t have anyone lining up to pay my normal hourly rate, so this doesnโ€™t seem so bad.
lgdlyseou4d
So one other option is to offer to do it at that faster speed for even more money. If you think of time as a surface area youโ€™re exposed over, less is more sometimes. Work 20 hour days, churn it out really fast.

The best answer is an objective checklist for delivery
qjefmqrcj4d
We killed that vendor by using their agile process as a force multiplier
xoferlvmj4d
I donโ€™t think they see any benefit to have it done sooner than sept. Itโ€™s education and September is start of term.
iprwvsmyi4d
Thatโ€™s what universities are buying for.
ljswumkxl4d
Their sales cycle is such that their sales team doesnโ€™t want extra time to sell with all this upheaval?
kbidzltqw4d
Or are they selling the product before itโ€™s ready?
ayradiwgz4d
Theyโ€™ll be demoing the feature of the product before its deployed to production, yea
zyazsmmdk4d
Normally on bell curve sales cycles, any extra time on the front of the cycle equals more revenue capture presuming sales folks work their job
gtdbvb4d
what do you lose for asking tho?
vvqrwimza4d
Maybe just lose time if we need to do another iteration of negotiation ๐Ÿ˜›
rzoyruxkf4d
We need to do more iterations anyways, so yea I can propose it. A depreciating bonus week by week ๐Ÿ˜‚
lwoenr4d
ah sorry didnt read it was to start asap
ajgetzxbd4d
If I finish it this week you owe me $1,000,000 ๐Ÿค“
zoiqkjtha4d
Ok but if itโ€™s 4 weeks late you owe me a n95 mask
mjjmqyvdd4d
Be better off finding a fucking unicorn
kfudjtyixeeom4d
Btw I think my opinion on this would be different if we're talking about hourlies of $850/1000 vs $35/50, and I don't know what your rates are
tixwmmhck4d
The street value of the n95 is also $1MM by then ๏ฟผ
yylhgedxs4d
Is someone working for the big N?
ghvdcl4d
is it ettiquette to talk or not talk about rates openly in here?
cxbzhpsoaback4d
No idea. I'm open about mine because I think we all benefit from talking plainly about money
xpxbdbtcsxzse4d
I'm sure some people are more shy
phgicqkdf4d
I talk rates. Way easier to compare and help that way
ibhjnb4d
I agree
bghsofmnc4d
I also do value billing tho ๐Ÿ˜‚
dhxtlynbo4d
If youโ€™re charging $300/hr already and thatโ€™s monthly, youโ€™re in far better shape than $30/hr with the bonus making up a substantial fraction of your actual comp
dttgdtpoavkpf4d
Oh boy here comes another patio11 dickride ๐Ÿ˜‚
hgghqgvkb4d
?
cpcbqurck4d
The stripe kid?
txqdkrhdkhjrj4d
Haha, he talks about value-based pricing on HN a lot and most people go on to quote him extensively
luvtvbvbkghmb4d
Not that he's wrong
hutpqq4d
can we agree that his blogposts are too damn long?
noufad4d
๐Ÿ˜‚
jmdvvxgek4d
I have never read any of his stuff knowingly
votuvzowlzsqc4d
He's good
dvxhzgqjouawq4d
I learned a lot
htayptava4d
I just do the basic math with the senior leadership team and we agree a fair number. Then we shake hands. Thatโ€™s it.
eqowdkqtpzmzg4d
Found the superspreader
jthftlbff4d
Last time we used a napkin from jimmy johns. ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ
kzteemnzz4d
Interesting zero value arrangements have ever had contracts for me. Just a handshake.
gqomuvvvu4d
And Iโ€™ve never been burned on a single one
ysclaznst4d
Iโ€™m sure I will be eventually, but the number of deals Iโ€™ve landed that legal would have re-evaluated... Iโ€™m still ahead by a lot even if one ever died
szuntilds4d
Finance shouted at me last year at my biggest client because nobody told them about the deal and their model didnโ€™t account for the value of what I did to their bottom line, and it materially affected their tax position. Thatโ€™s what happens when the companies largest non labor expense disappears and the finance people donโ€™t notice the change. Oops.
avlfwxoyvubey4d
Ice cold bro
fjomhfurb4d
Itโ€™s $75/hr + bonus, my hourly rate is $100/hr. Bonus value hasnโ€™t been formally discussed but Iโ€™d be setting it to compensate for ~1.25x my $100/hr earnings to account for the risk. So bonus is around $20k on a 3 month deliverable. If I โ€œdonโ€™t deliverโ€ itโ€™s about $40k earning over 3 months.
ohqurozsg4d
Likely going to come back with a higher hourly though. Iโ€™m more just trying draw out the caveats of the structure.
apxxqltpp4d
I really donโ€™t think this company will do something really sleazy to eff me on it, and Iโ€™d be willing to bet $10k 2:1 odds on that
mquvenfdm4d
That said itโ€™s a good risk to keep in mind and Iโ€™ll see if we can work out a way to avoid it, such as multiple bonus pay outs based on milestones.
hjbqqpspz4d
Not proud of it.
uereabqofkriy4d
Sounds like a decent plan, hope it works out well ๐Ÿ™‚
โ€นโ€บ
×
USD โ”€ $
ยฐF
โœจ To see all results
Sign Up
Log In