Jobs Talk Chat

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wefcgaxpei Thanks. I have all of those skills and a happy well-paid remote job, what are you offering that's unique?

nxdvzllaa5d

Wow

scipfik5d

haha good q's hbjzrcllojbfkj

daqvjuxv4d

I need a professional photo for my portfolio/LinkedIn etc. Anyone in Phuket and doing such thing? (I’m here until June)

mtufjgpvfoo4d

I’m looking for a virtual assistant for about 10 hours per week, preferably in GMT+8. Also looking for someone who can scrape therapist data based in Singapore and Malaysia.

fnzoaflmwm4d

messaged you...

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Experienced software devs, I have a question about salary negotiation. Starting a thread.

fcpuqmfy2d

If you are given a ballpark range by a potential employer (let's say $125-175k/yr for the sake of example), that matches your target, would you just say "Ok, sounds good" and wait for a specific offer?

korqjotp2d

Also for the sake of example, lets say your last job paid at the bottom of the given range.

flmndddb2d

Would you tighten the range and say something like "$150-175k/yr would be good"?

lztfclgf2d

I'm asking because I've always been aggressive in salary negotiations, but in this case, I really want this job, no matter what the salary, and I think in the past I've missed out on some opportunities because I was more expensive than other potential candidates.

eoqjqmos2d

This time I'm thinking of just saying that the range they gave is fine. But I also don't want to come across as not valuing myself or my skills/experience.

cioyfczb2d

And though it's not at all the most important thing to me, I don't like the idea of leaving money on the table that I could be earning.

woidsgogobkwdeb2d

I’ve found it to be helpful on both sides of the equation to shoot to hit the market rate. Getting data on what that might be from respected sources and using it to frame the discussion can bring both sides together IMO.

qilzlkq2d

I just listened to 2 great podcast episodes on negotiation in general, but many of the examples were specific to getting a job and salary negotiation. Highly recommend it.

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There is another episode with the same guest, a few episodes later, but I don't have the link now. Just search thru the archives for the guest's name.

ywknrhcznas2d

I'm looking for a creative designer who can take a detailed brief to create a brand identity, specifically, logo, colour theme, and font. Ideally someone with ex-agency background who has worked with software companies + consultancies before. Have initial ideas from Fiverr designers, but need something more creative and distinct. Please PM me!

devlbgrzchnsqvv2d

They’re telling you how much they’ve had signed off internally

jcomskhrlfxsb2d

That's not usually quite how salary conversations have gone in my experience, but if they've said a number I would never accept anything less than the top one

ootjiiuhloiut2d

The trick, as usual, is to be completely fine with missing opportunities

kajkbeogkejflws2d

If you aim for the higher part, and they decide you’re good but not worth more than existing developers at that part, you risk them liking you but not making an offer

erxacbrbyzjcynp2d

This is where a good recruiter comes in handy

eiyozmgnwshxjxh2d

Because they’re also incentivized to get you paid more

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My usual reaction is something slightly (but not much) more tactful than "you must be joking" until I find their max, and then reluctantly agree if they can make the difference up in other ways (lifestyle)

msgjofzkqjdjj2d

Sadly it's usually my honest reaction, offers from companies based outside the US are a joke

jamczommcdgjw2d

I basically ignore them now even though I would prefer a more global work experience

ndcrtnuasfkszwp2d

I wrote a short book about this, I wonder if I can find it

wzuccfzaurxox2d

Please do!

gmegoyzsayooznh2d

there you go

lxryrjufdonggyy2d

It starts and ends abruptly

wplinzasatlwlfp2d

as I cut off all the marketing cruft I usually print it with

binpivxrxxfpa2d

Much appreciated!

rgphlojvsfewj2d

Hmm yeah little of this applies to me as so far I've only worked with companies where I have access to the CTO (and consultants sometimes get to bend the rules)

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But nice job writing it, it's cool you have a ready answer when anyone asks a question about salary neg

hrshoxikhobxd2d

People _really_ need to learn that stuff and stop taking the abuse

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Read patio11 on salary negotiation too. I find it's a balance of being upfront as early as possible to not mutually waste time, and proving that you're one of the top candidates before being "difficult".

So if the range looks ballpark OK, I would ignore until the final stages. It gives a good impression to focus on other stuff too and also gives you more leverage as you become more of a sunk cost the more time you spend with them, and most people don't grok sunken cost fallacy. Basically you want to be as close to an essential part of their execution before agreeing to a final number if you want to optimize comp for you.

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pmd!

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Yeah very good advice. I agree with patio11 on everything except not charging hourly, hourly has been wonderful for me

lesopspbnjoejrrp2d

Can also check out 99 designs.

jwiguf2d

I also look for a designer for project-based gigs. Preferably a freelancer, with experience working on websites designs specifically. I hate 99 designs, please PM :-)

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I think it depends on the work for hourly.

mxaroetjjlh2d

I think hourly can work well to some extent but interested to hear how you scale it, considering hours are limited. I think his point was that weekly billing has potential to become far more about the value you provide than the hours you spend, so you can "use" the same week for multiple clients and bill them each for it

yosglmedrgtqpmaa2d

Ya you can only scale by lying about your time, raising rates or switching to an agency model.

hndhiruzhancu2d

Yes, I'm near the limit of hourly and looking for ways to move past it, but it has also saved me untold grief from scope creep and other hassles

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I think the agency model isn't a fundamental change, it's more like increasing your inventory (of hours)

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^ off-topic on the salary negotiation thread, but I don’t mind to have a good rant about this company when deciding I wanted to work remote full time, I realised I had to leave my job at a respectable tech startup and find something new. After some interviewing, I had two job offers - company A that was bigger, more structured, and somewhat a “safer” option, and company B that was in all regards a beginning stage startup so a lot more chaotic.

Because it’d be my first time digital nomading, working in odd timezone etc. I figured it’d be safer to go with option A, but went they sent the contract over I saw it mentioned somewhere _location London_. I called up the internal recruiter, who had been quite pushy (and “excited for me to get started_”_) mentioning that that was not what we agreed on, because from the onset I’ve been very clear that the main reason I looked for a new job was I wanted to be able to work anywhere (or at least Latin America). He kept responding that that was nothing I had to worry about, it was just semantics and that is what they put in as I get paid in my British bank account, but me physically could be anywhere in the world and in fact they’ve done this many times.

Gullible as I am I believed him - I mean, he is an internal recruiter after all so surely he is a representation of the company and not some sales person. I signed the contract, started a month later, and lo and behold a few days in no one in my team seemed to understand the arrangement I made. Not even my manager.

Within a week of me starting I quit again, because that was actually not something they could offer me 😒 I went back to company B and luckily they were still happy to have me, but I was close from “having a job where I can work anywhere in the world” to “having no job at all”.

TL;DR and moral of the story have a healthy scepticism with recruiters, get _everything_ in writing.

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Ya it is only problematic if your client requires you.

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I've never _actually_ worked with a UK company bmmkygwctfbsdhz but there's a reason for that. Time and time again I've observed that they have a remarkable disrespect for what they call "IT" and generally a sort of management-heavy culture focused on extreme low-risk investments. Engineers I've met from there seem almost shellshocked at times.

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It's reflected in the salaries I've seen but it doesn't stop there

ytuactfjtprah2d

I reckon you dodged a bullet

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Csongor used to be on this chat, but I think no more, did a great job for exactly what you are asking for.

fslwvctaur2d

Lol my interaction with recruiters in the UK over my career has been abysmal

grzylgoous2d

Utter rats

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When I was young and naive, my graduate placer recruiter, upon realising I had another offer from elsewhere - countered by saying that the offer was now only valid for 60 minutes and the client was gonna withdraw unless I accepted in time

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They then called me 9 months into the job to see if I’d consider moving

zibldmcbxydro2d

lol fuck right off with that

omiougnwghzho2d

What kind of market do they think they're in

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I’ve turned down an investment bank role in the past, and been called a “f idiot” by another recruiter for saying I’m not interested in that environment.

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99.9% of recruiter emails to my inbox go immediately in trash

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For both sides of the hiring table

retmgrbppc2d

I regularly have recruiter messages on LinkedIn saying they’ve closely studied my profile and have identified me as the perfect candidate for a Java developer role they have going

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Actual fact Java had basically a first and only mention on my career timeline, with last usage about 9 years ago.

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Anyway.. I’m going off on one now...

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I feel you, whenever I complain to my friends about money (who doesn't sometimes) they're like just go work at a bank for a while

dgedpkamuqhwz2d

Hard pass bro

ajuopmhdprham2d

Have you gone the agency route U06FWGSG1? I've reached the point where it's the only way forward.

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I don't feel entirely comfortable with the management part of it

cflakqsdxmyoa2d

That's understating it, terrified is more like tbh

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Being a recruiter is an easy way to make money for old rope

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Just need to spam a few weird computer nerds and you get paid

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Source I’m a tech recruiter

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Stay back 🔥

crvwwwosrwnit2d

Nah, I would love to work with a good recruiter sometime, thing is I've never met one. Just the other kind.

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Never got that far, I have a SaaS now so I don't do freelance anymore.

imnlagbokt2d

Ya since learning that many years ago, I’ve learned to get them to back off and never contact me again fairly effectively.

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Thing is I don't want them to go away, I want them to bring me _interesting_ opportunities and support me in our mutual interest

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But since that's not happening yeah just go

fjycvgxptmkbdw2d

yeah I imagine having a good recruiter on your side can make a lot of hassle so much easier, and no doubt there’ll be some good ones out there - I just have a hard time trusting them

wasvyqlaerm2d

xcxqjwneryvixvxfa have you used them before?

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All the time. You really need to give good direction and also hold out giving high scores until the end.

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You can do it risk free but you will get more submissions if you guarantee the award.

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lucky you!

mufljrudtx2d

Lmfao! #harrrrsh

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pdouddbhzzyhhv that's one helluva smart negotiation tactic

uizycpfsqctld2d

Are you sure? It's basically the same thing you do at a flea market. The only special bit is knowing that they have a max number but that stuff like titles/pto/remote are "free"

vclkekueankur2d

They have to believe you're good first, or it doesn't work, but acting a little bit arrogant can help them believe that. They want to believe it anyway. Very fine line to walk though, you can't win every hand you play this way.

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Also, try to actually be good

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Or like what's the point

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I know a great Ireland-based recruiter FWIW, not sure if she does placement for UK gigs as well. I doubt she would ever spam.

joevfpbakstxwyel2d

On a related note, I know a very talented UI/UX designer in the States who should have a gig that deserves her talents. Lmk if you're interested and I will connect you. I am not a recruiter :-)

aicotxc2d

Good recruiters are super rare but super valuable too.

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I have come across literally a handful during over a decade in London - but they do exist.

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Re market rate zjnihwuryebucfrg the ballpark they gave me is slightly higher than the US west coast market rate, but they're a UK based company, so I think it's a pretty good ballpark.

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pwrnqenyvvxirlhf "If you aim for the higher part, and they decide you’re good but not worth more than existing developers at that part, you risk them liking you but not making an offer"... this is the exact scenario I've found myself in many times. Getting to the final stage of interviews, but presenting myself as the more expensive option and not getting an offer. In this case, I really like the opportunity, as long as the salary falls within market rates. So, I don't want to lose it based on salary negotiation.

lfiowwrazuujrzp1d

I mean you can always say something like “I’m really hoping for $160,000 and it would be enough for me to not consider other offers; anything lower than that I’d need to discuss with my wife”

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That should be a sufficient incantation, and give you some flexibility to propose a counter offer too

gwzmnaip1d

This is why I only work with remote first or fully distributed teams now. Teams that are willing to "make an exception" are just asking for a bad time.

wgfwqvxc1d

Is this a UK thing? Seems like there could be good and bad companies in any country.

kkymznghgrsygdi1d

Again, another advantage of going through a recruiter is that the recruiter will be able to have a conversation with both sides that the two sides aren’t able or willing to have directly

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It's my _impression_ of a UK thing, as a foreigner who's never worked there.

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ymmv