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dnbvtfhqiozod6d
wefcgaxpei Thanks. I have all of those skills and a happy well-paid remote job, what are you offering that's unique?
nxdvzllaa5d
Wow
scipfik5d
haha good q's hbjzrcllojbfkj
daqvjuxv4d
I need a professional photo for my portfolio/LinkedIn etc. Anyone in Phuket and doing such thing? (Iโ€™m here until June)
mtufjgpvfoo4d
Iโ€™m looking for a virtual assistant for about 10 hours per week, preferably in GMT+8. Also looking for someone who can scrape therapist data based in Singapore and Malaysia.
fnzoaflmwm4d
messaged you...
iekuigas2d
Experienced software devs, I have a question about salary negotiation. Starting a thread.
fcpuqmfy2d
If you are given a ballpark range by a potential employer (let's say $125-175k/yr for the sake of example), that matches your target, would you just say "Ok, sounds good" and wait for a specific offer?
korqjotp2d
Also for the sake of example, lets say your last job paid at the bottom of the given range.
flmndddb2d
Would you tighten the range and say something like "$150-175k/yr would be good"?
lztfclgf2d
I'm asking because I've always been aggressive in salary negotiations, but in this case, I really want this job, no matter what the salary, and I think in the past I've missed out on some opportunities because I was more expensive than other potential candidates.
eoqjqmos2d
This time I'm thinking of just saying that the range they gave is fine. But I also don't want to come across as not valuing myself or my skills/experience.
cioyfczb2d
And though it's not at all the most important thing to me, I don't like the idea of leaving money on the table that I could be earning.
woidsgogobkwdeb2d
Iโ€™ve found it to be helpful on both sides of the equation to shoot to hit the market rate. Getting data on what that might be from respected sources and using it to frame the discussion can bring both sides together IMO.
qilzlkq2d
I just listened to 2 great podcast episodes on negotiation in general, but many of the examples were specific to getting a job and salary negotiation. Highly recommend it.

``````
There is another episode with the same guest, a few episodes later, but I don't have the link now. Just search thru the archives for the guest's name.
ywknrhcznas2d
I'm looking for a creative designer who can take a detailed brief to create a brand identity, specifically, logo, colour theme, and font. Ideally someone with ex-agency background who has worked with software companies + consultancies before. Have initial ideas from Fiverr designers, but need something more creative and distinct. Please PM me!
devlbgrzchnsqvv2d
Theyโ€™re telling you how much theyโ€™ve had signed off internally
jcomskhrlfxsb2d
That's not usually quite how salary conversations have gone in my experience, but if they've said a number I would never accept anything less than the top one
ootjiiuhloiut2d
The trick, as usual, is to be completely fine with missing opportunities
kajkbeogkejflws2d
If you aim for the higher part, and they decide youโ€™re good but not worth more than existing developers at that part, you risk them liking you but not making an offer
erxacbrbyzjcynp2d
This is where a good recruiter comes in handy
eiyozmgnwshxjxh2d
Because theyโ€™re also incentivized to get you paid more
iqfettnjhnoxg2d
My usual reaction is something slightly (but not much) more tactful than "you must be joking" until I find their max, and then reluctantly agree if they can make the difference up in other ways (lifestyle)
msgjofzkqjdjj2d
Sadly it's usually my honest reaction, offers from companies based outside the US are a joke
jamczommcdgjw2d
I basically ignore them now even though I would prefer a more global work experience
ndcrtnuasfkszwp2d
I wrote a short book about this, I wonder if I can find it
wzuccfzaurxox2d
Please do!
gmegoyzsayooznh2d
there you go
lxryrjufdonggyy2d
It starts and ends abruptly
wplinzasatlwlfp2d
as I cut off all the marketing cruft I usually print it with
binpivxrxxfpa2d
Much appreciated!
rgphlojvsfewj2d
Hmm yeah little of this applies to me as so far I've only worked with companies where I have access to the CTO (and consultants sometimes get to bend the rules)
nxdnwtsulszox2d
But nice job writing it, it's cool you have a ready answer when anyone asks a question about salary neg
hrshoxikhobxd2d
People _really_ need to learn that stuff and stop taking the abuse
fdcapspcqbx2d
Read patio11 on salary negotiation too. I find it's a balance of being upfront as early as possible to not mutually waste time, and proving that you're one of the top candidates before being "difficult".

So if the range looks ballpark OK, I would ignore until the final stages. It gives a good impression to focus on other stuff too and also gives you more leverage as you become more of a sunk cost the more time you spend with them, and most people don't grok sunken cost fallacy. Basically you want to be as close to an essential part of their execution before agreeing to a final number if you want to optimize comp for you.
usdcrbk2d
pmd!
xbmmtzofhfykz2d
Yeah very good advice. I agree with patio11 on everything except not charging hourly, hourly has been wonderful for me
lesopspbnjoejrrp2d
Can also check out 99 designs.
jwiguf2d
I also look for a designer for project-based gigs. Preferably a freelancer, with experience working on websites designs specifically. I hate 99 designs, please PM :-)
qtcrtpnhcwvceapg2d
I think it depends on the work for hourly.
mxaroetjjlh2d
I think hourly can work well to some extent but interested to hear how you scale it, considering hours are limited. I think his point was that weekly billing has potential to become far more about the value you provide than the hours you spend, so you can "use" the same week for multiple clients and bill them each for it
yosglmedrgtqpmaa2d
Ya you can only scale by lying about your time, raising rates or switching to an agency model.
hndhiruzhancu2d
Yes, I'm near the limit of hourly and looking for ways to move past it, but it has also saved me untold grief from scope creep and other hassles
twdluqvigzwtp2d
I think the agency model isn't a fundamental change, it's more like increasing your inventory (of hours)
kvgzneoqqlrmnb2d
^ off-topic on the salary negotiation thread, but I donโ€™t mind to have a good rant about this company when deciding I wanted to work remote full time, I realised I had to leave my job at a respectable tech startup and find something new. After some interviewing, I had two job offers - company A that was bigger, more structured, and somewhat a โ€œsaferโ€ option, and company B that was in all regards a beginning stage startup so a lot more chaotic.

Because itโ€™d be my first time digital nomading, working in odd timezone etc. I figured itโ€™d be safer to go with option A, but went they sent the contract over I saw it mentioned somewhere _location London_. I called up the internal recruiter, who had been quite pushy (and โ€œexcited for me to get started_โ€_) mentioning that that was not what we agreed on, because from the onset Iโ€™ve been very clear that the main reason I looked for a new job was I wanted to be able to work anywhere (or at least Latin America). He kept responding that that was nothing I had to worry about, it was just semantics and that is what they put in as I get paid in my British bank account, but me physically could be anywhere in the world and in fact theyโ€™ve done this many times.

Gullible as I am I believed him - I mean, he is an internal recruiter after all so surely he is a representation of the company and not some sales person. I signed the contract, started a month later, and lo and behold a few days in no one in my team seemed to understand the arrangement I made. Not even my manager.

Within a week of me starting I quit again, because that was actually not something they could offer me ๐Ÿ˜’ I went back to company B and luckily they were still happy to have me, but I was close from โ€œhaving a job where I can work anywhere in the worldโ€ to โ€œhaving no job at allโ€.

TL;DR and moral of the story have a healthy scepticism with recruiters, get _everything_ in writing.
bnvgpnydukxrigej2d
Ya it is only problematic if your client requires you.
nsaavxrhfdsut2d
I've never _actually_ worked with a UK company bmmkygwctfbsdhz but there's a reason for that. Time and time again I've observed that they have a remarkable disrespect for what they call "IT" and generally a sort of management-heavy culture focused on extreme low-risk investments. Engineers I've met from there seem almost shellshocked at times.
bhobhnlqitllk2d
It's reflected in the salaries I've seen but it doesn't stop there
ytuactfjtprah2d
I reckon you dodged a bullet
vrjbaqb2d
Csongor used to be on this chat, but I think no more, did a great job for exactly what you are asking for.
fslwvctaur2d
Lol my interaction with recruiters in the UK over my career has been abysmal
grzylgoous2d
Utter rats
jndcueqdoo2d
When I was young and naive, my graduate placer recruiter, upon realising I had another offer from elsewhere - countered by saying that the offer was now only valid for 60 minutes and the client was gonna withdraw unless I accepted in time
patudzgycu2d
They then called me 9 months into the job to see if Iโ€™d consider moving
zibldmcbxydro2d
lol fuck right off with that
omiougnwghzho2d
What kind of market do they think they're in
ecczsblcgc2d
Iโ€™ve turned down an investment bank role in the past, and been called a โ€œf idiotโ€ by another recruiter for saying Iโ€™m not interested in that environment.
rkljqvbsft2d
99.9% of recruiter emails to my inbox go immediately in trash
zueqqjvdtz2d
For both sides of the hiring table
retmgrbppc2d
I regularly have recruiter messages on LinkedIn saying theyโ€™ve closely studied my profile and have identified me as the perfect candidate for a Java developer role they have going
ybssghyirt2d
Actual fact Java had basically a first and only mention on my career timeline, with last usage about 9 years ago.
qlnoejtmkk2d
Anyway.. Iโ€™m going off on one now...
wlsvggnlyoibo2d
I feel you, whenever I complain to my friends about money (who doesn't sometimes) they're like just go work at a bank for a while
dgedpkamuqhwz2d
Hard pass bro
ajuopmhdprham2d
Have you gone the agency route U06FWGSG1? I've reached the point where it's the only way forward.
atvxhoazbxlhn2d
I don't feel entirely comfortable with the management part of it
cflakqsdxmyoa2d
That's understating it, terrified is more like tbh
vsytcvmxfjdfeix2d
Being a recruiter is an easy way to make money for old rope
sjaedjsaiuottwk2d
Just need to spam a few weird computer nerds and you get paid
mrbcecbvnanbwzu2d
Source Iโ€™m a tech recruiter
grkhehnlylmbr2d
Stay back ๐Ÿ”ฅ
crvwwwosrwnit2d
Nah, I would love to work with a good recruiter sometime, thing is I've never met one. Just the other kind.
hdtlqltcaeqhgfer2d
Never got that far, I have a SaaS now so I don't do freelance anymore.
imnlagbokt2d
Ya since learning that many years ago, Iโ€™ve learned to get them to back off and never contact me again fairly effectively.
uoyqeeumqbcre2d
Thing is I don't want them to go away, I want them to bring me _interesting_ opportunities and support me in our mutual interest
ofszvypkrhysj2d
But since that's not happening yeah just go
fjycvgxptmkbdw2d
yeah I imagine having a good recruiter on your side can make a lot of hassle so much easier, and no doubt thereโ€™ll be some good ones out there - I just have a hard time trusting them
wasvyqlaerm2d
xcxqjwneryvixvxfa have you used them before?
lyrlpvlkasgiyjwn2d
All the time. You really need to give good direction and also hold out giving high scores until the end.
kofuauhggjqotquf2d
You can do it risk free but you will get more submissions if you guarantee the award.
xvhpvbupct2d
lucky you!
mufljrudtx2d
Lmfao! #harrrrsh
nnxtvdcuxu2d
pdouddbhzzyhhv that's one helluva smart negotiation tactic
uizycpfsqctld2d
Are you sure? It's basically the same thing you do at a flea market. The only special bit is knowing that they have a max number but that stuff like titles/pto/remote are "free"
vclkekueankur2d
They have to believe you're good first, or it doesn't work, but acting a little bit arrogant can help them believe that. They want to believe it anyway. Very fine line to walk though, you can't win every hand you play this way.
fvpcjrabdxbay2d
Also, try to actually be good
vutdrjwgspkwx2d
Or like what's the point
sbbunjhsbspifdou2d
I know a great Ireland-based recruiter FWIW, not sure if she does placement for UK gigs as well. I doubt she would ever spam.
joevfpbakstxwyel2d
On a related note, I know a very talented UI/UX designer in the States who should have a gig that deserves her talents. Lmk if you're interested and I will connect you. I am not a recruiter :-)
aicotxc2d
Good recruiters are super rare but super valuable too.
lbahvgm2d
I have come across literally a handful during over a decade in London - but they do exist.
jmrgunjv1d
Re market rate zjnihwuryebucfrg the ballpark they gave me is slightly higher than the US west coast market rate, but they're a UK based company, so I think it's a pretty good ballpark.
brzghpzg1d
pwrnqenyvvxirlhf "If you aim for the higher part, and they decide youโ€™re good but not worth more than existing developers at that part, you risk them liking you but not making an offer"... this is the exact scenario I've found myself in many times. Getting to the final stage of interviews, but presenting myself as the more expensive option and not getting an offer. In this case, I really like the opportunity, as long as the salary falls within market rates. So, I don't want to lose it based on salary negotiation.
lfiowwrazuujrzp1d
I mean you can always say something like โ€œIโ€™m really hoping for $160,000 and it would be enough for me to not consider other offers; anything lower than that Iโ€™d need to discuss with my wifeโ€
vksfxdfkdijhpch1d
That should be a sufficient incantation, and give you some flexibility to propose a counter offer too
gwzmnaip1d
This is why I only work with remote first or fully distributed teams now. Teams that are willing to "make an exception" are just asking for a bad time.
wgfwqvxc1d
Is this a UK thing? Seems like there could be good and bad companies in any country.
kkymznghgrsygdi1d
Again, another advantage of going through a recruiter is that the recruiter will be able to have a conversation with both sides that the two sides arenโ€™t able or willing to have directly
ozmmuhaubnltd1d
It's my _impression_ of a UK thing, as a foreigner who's never worked there.
rldsalfgaitoj1d
ymmv
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