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rnyjccvrvan7d
Honestly, I dunno. I can't really tell if Bernie/Warren have a real shot
syouzfirbap7d
They both have a good base, and I'm sure a coalition will form behind the nominee (I hope ๐Ÿคž ), and would totally both kill it in debates vs Trump, but is that enough to convince the people that don't really look at politics
keghdskwae7d
I think it's safe to say all the Dems are significantly less popular than Clinton was in 2016
qkwwbqp7d
That might be right, but they're also less unpopular.
wdyftaw7d
Old news ๐Ÿ’ค
zhjqciny7d
Yeah old episode
jthdspzj7d
I was just watching through the impeachment series
owielvy6d
The way I see it, Trump and the Republicans are essentially in a suicide pact.
rloromqpbmxjkate6d
Bernie is too far left, he won't pull centrists like Biden. This is the same reason brexit happened, the left being too extreme.
uwoyyvx6d
dyatfynba Get up to speed ๐Ÿš€ youtu.be/tzbFk4R3hKc
ojifhkuhlr5d
I'm not sure Biden voters actually exist in the real world
wnvibtndfqdnzzvo5d
That perception is based on the fact that moderates are pretty much invisible to news outlets in the USA.
umbugkykcttlsbjr5d
I was in the states the night of hillary's election, worse, I was at the Detroit Hillary victory party. When I was outside I heard people talking they didn't vote because it was too hard to choose.
xhkinbthfqzvggvs5d
What people on the outside don't see is Americans are bombarded with strategic political ads from both sides that are very persuasive.
ofmiylsunv5d
You think Biden is the most popular candidate among centrist/moderate voters?
wvfixur5d
Personally I don't have much reason to doubt poll numbers on this one. We're all biased by being online and politically aware, but the messaging and arguments we pick up on Twitter or whatever aren't a true reflection of the electorate.
wtclczo5d
Trump is historically unpopular but they've learned you can win elections simply by demoralizing your opponents enough that they don't come out on election day. Active voter suppression favoring Republicans also helps, of course.
qrwlkao5d
But yeah, if Biden wins the nomination I figure it's 50/50. Just about anyone else and Trump is probably toast.
lfevbzj5d
(Or at least I'd like to think so...)
hsmktvz5d
Wildcard variables impeachment proceedings, other court cases, the economy.
gvnkubcnju5d
Has Trump lost any voters?
qrgsqzj4d
Won't know until the votes are tallied but I would say yes, certainly. Media focuses on the stereotypical ignorant white Trump voters considered his base but his coalition also includes educated and rich urban/suburban whites as well, and fewer people are going to feel quite as alright coming out for Trump after the nastiness of the last several years. Basically some chunk of his support revels in the degeneracy, the racism, the ignorance, the spectacle, and another chunk just wanted tax cuts and whatever. I don't think that other chunk is going to be stoked in 2020. Arguably we saw some of that demoralization in the midterms. (This is all off the cuff tho)
fenzbqomcp4d
I seriously doubt there is a meaningful block of people who voted for him in 2016 and would flip, considering the current state of the Democratic party
zgnbbbbaoz4d
Adam Schiff not being recognized on a gameshow the other day was very interesting
mptyjfj4d
It's not about flipping. It's about whether you come out on election day and pull the lever or not.
gwjxvme4d
Hillary voters were demoralized in 2016. They didn't decide to vote Trump, they just didn't show up (or voted Jill Stein lol).
qjruddstpsb4d
That's why I worry about a Biden nomination, I think other candidates have a bigger chance at getting people to the polls
fykxzjgwuhe4d
Especially first-time voters & young people
ahateai4d
Yep, agreed. And here's a weird little historic artifact (esp. the last paragraph) www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-voters-poll-idUSKBN1332RY
ziffsyajsugvkcov3d
lolol, ignore everything I have said about Biden? What the actual
orrnnuas3d
I'm surprised biden is only 4 years older than trump
mkljhjxl3d
he should dye his hair orange
owoeqvvpmacmil3d
first he needs a toupe
fawlddsfetpjkz3d
jokcywclh borrowing that one
oqxmaeanfgj3d
Would be weird to still think that
aqlcywtnpyz3d
The american dream is just that, a dream
lpaujutojww3d
I saw a quote somewhere that said "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarilyย embarrassed millionaires." and that explains a lot
rzumjwnoaduxdgic3d
I doubt whomever said that lived in working class neighborhoods
ulhjbgxmhiukwegj3d
lebadyvnxtbjryaix from way downtown
zeykgssiyygwhuxy3d
Socialism never took hold because of individualism and the need for ownership. In order for socialism to take hold you need collectivism. I am talking about real socialism not American socialism which is essentially just another word for welfare.
qltcxctnqooaxlls3d
"Socialism is in vogue because no one is sure what it is. The classic definition of abolishing private property, a planned economy, and collective ownership of the means of production no longer applies. More people today believe that socialism means โ€œequalityโ€ than โ€œgovernment control.โ€ Six percent told Gallup that socialism is โ€œtalking to peopleโ€ or โ€œbeing social.โ€ The same Gallup poll that found 40 percent of the public has a positive view of socialism, however you define it, also discovered large majorities in favor of the free market leading the way on innovation, the distribution of wealth, the economy overall, and wages, and smaller majorities for free-market approaches to higher education and health care. Americans are very bad socialists.

And socialists know it. That's why their most prominent spokesmen frame their domestic agendas in the language of the welfare state and social democracy, even as they celebrate, excuse, or defend socialist authoritarians abroad."
drzegval3d
lznklipjbzojoscbq the biggest flaw of libertarianism is the ownership bit.. private ownership shouldnโ€™t be the only solution for avoiding the tragedy of the commons.. a workaround might be some sort of auction system for gaining rental rights or something
dcyzdauuvrkamqqb3d
It's the only solution that works because of human nature. Everything else is Jurassic Park, we I know it failed the last 100x times but don't worry, this time, this TIME, the Dinosaurs will stay in the park.
vdtjkxxo3d
Iโ€™m not arguing for socialism btw
inyanoqd3d
I envision thereโ€™s a sweet spot between libertarianism/individualism/lassez faire market and a liberal world where the state owns the land, and thereโ€™s taxation on the rich
nfucypas3d
And hidden externalities are properly reflected in the marketplace
oiivtsmr3d
Transparency etc
wadgbchfnnhdzupi3d
Decentralized public ownership is still far too complex, which is why centralization ultimately always leads to consolidation of power even if the intention is that everything should be owned by everyone.
fqcimhni3d
This is what the glorious blockchain is for! Trust no one!
viyyiszm3d
โ›“
gmdtuial3d
A highly democratic society helps to minimize that centralization effect
xioieehl3d
But I guess itโ€™s not necessarily something that keeps forever.. assholes still centralize and exert control etc
aolwftaaatqagutj3d
Once socialism didn't take hold past 1930, it was too late. The US and the USSR were in a power struggle and socio-economic system became part of that competition
ukqkwvzi3d
Communism and socialism are different things
qptivazw3d
And of course thereโ€™s also different definitions for socialism to confuse things
gnxkqvfcxsyluycl3d
IMO the abuse of the word Socialism in American politics is one of the reasons you have a growing divide. Democrats say Socialism and they are thinking welfare and taxes, Republicans hear them say Socialism and they think they mean Hammer and Sickle (some of them do AOC wants communism, Bernie doesn't).
qwnxxinl3d
Yep exactly
vxnrvxykukz3d
> AOC wants communism
How so?
hxpuyfufhqfpkeac3d
"Democratic Socialist" vs "Social democrat" sound similar, but are very different. AOC is a democratic socialist, essentially she doesn't believe in private ownership but like many of the hard liners, they realize they can't actually implement proper communism so they try to get as close as they can using welfare.

zcyoxinmyfuvzxuv3d
They have evolved a bit but just look up AOC talking about how she thinks capitalism works.
hxldztlaykh3d
I'm getting confused because I think my definition of socialism is not the same as how it's viewed/described in the US
nleqxtkccgsajsfh3d
There is no proper definition of socialism in the USA, that is the problem.
setrrpum3d
Iโ€™ve done zero research on alternatives to private ownership.. I feel like some sort of leasing the land type of system might be decent
wakjeuph3d
People wanting to build a home for multiple generations of their family might be screwed but thatโ€™s probably not terribly important in the grand scheme of things
hyfrmapa3d
Anyways sorry for getting in the way of the socialism discussion, Iโ€™m kind of hijacking the topic
xstaaulquywrtplc3d
Socialism as a political system was created by Marx and had to do with ownership and in particular who owns the means of production. That was and still is the understood definition of socialism in much of the world. In some western countries, Socialism is used by some as kind of a catch all for anything that reduces income inequality.
cwkbltxcunc3d
hijacking is socialism
ewuysgtudgzxktzb3d
Or inequality in general.
xdqkqfui3d
Also liberal means that
fshnyktc3d
Reduce inequality
jjnossniacwhpebl3d
Sanders told NPR in March, โ€œWhat I mean by democratic socialism is that I want a vibrant democracy.โ€ Okay, then โ€” who doesnโ€™t? The following month he told Trevor Noah that socialism โ€œmeans economic rights and human rights. I believe from the bottom of my heart that health care is a human right. . . . To be a democratic socialist means that we believe โ€” I believe โ€” that human rights include a decent job, affordable housing, health care, education, and, by the way, a clean environment.โ€ But this is not so different from FDRโ€™s conception of the โ€œfour freedoms.โ€
stqrwcderrfwryxy3d
American politicians will also call Norwegian countries socialist, even after leaders are like, "No we are not, we are a welfare state"
gmoxxswspveywmpy3d
.
zhvgrygw3d
Some forms of socialism are market economy compatible, no?
moyyhukx3d
Googling for โ€œsocialism market economyโ€ first result is en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy ๐Ÿ˜‚
uymjwiyu3d
TL;DR socialism in the US -

gofzxrml2d
kkboyuuvg OMG, thatโ€™s perfect
yrcesxgr2d
Yea i saw it a while ago and it keeps being so perfect
vyuvplnlpvuldgpp2d
znmneeqwp both China and Vietnam employ a market economy because they believe in the Marxist road map that eventually they will be able to return to communism. So essentially all money and land is a loan that will eventually be seized.
ijwojpzfvbljttca2d
irhdfqhmb I have met conservatives who believe all taxes are socialism. I once had a conversation where I was like if that is the definition than a family unit is socialist because parents essentially pay a tax to support their kids.
cgegoxnioexcbpxg2d
Subject was changed fast.
jelqxplaw2d
> โ€œWith my family, I'm a communist. With my close friends, I'm a socialist. At the state level of politics, I'm a Democrat. At higher levels, I'm a Republican, and at the federal levels, I'm a Libertarian.โ€
teetfju2d
(cracking open a beer) ๐Ÿบ
sjklamzrdtwodbzy2d
I understood that +1sunglasses
qdnnippxvq2d
Bailing out the banks was pretty socialist
uxdldraffq2d
Or at least, a generous welfare payment
jzcdcmlf2d
i guess it was a cross of socialist and capitalist hah.. it protected the capitalists at least, with the excuse of protecting the people
cocewduzuj2d
> it protected the capitalists at least, with the excuse of protecting the people
ooh i'm stealing that
sdfydpfgp2d
we need more study of this whole thing
spuwspbja2d
what we need is someone trained as both an analyst and a therapist so they can really get it
rdkwzevhm2d
zingโ€ฆ
nhnmccdqvhqzzhbo11h
I hope China isn't hiding real numbers.
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