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mawuhbezljg1d
and then model out Refund vs wait for chargeback
wnvsplumrqo1d
and consider chargeback protection if it's a high enough rate
lvdtmqerdwh1d
or pay the extra $0.02/transaction for the advanced radar features to stop some of those transactions before they happen
hhultp1d
so... sorry that I insist just making sure I get this right.. once someone puts a dispute, since you are already have to pay the chargeback (unless you win) why would you not dispute it? I get it, you would not dispute it if the time to dispute it is worth more than the chargeback. Now I get what you were saying with the high chargebacks.
xoyfzhnnpci1d
right
frxgydgflyg1d
easy example Restaurant with 2-3 chargebacks per day across $50+ locations
tdvhecqjesv1d
chargeback is often 'goods not received', which means going throguh camera footage and tying to the right customer to prove they did receieve it
rosecslvzvf1d
way too much effort, you're better off just accepting the $15 fee
teoahltthuu1d
for a digital subscription, your ability to fight and have good evidence is way higher
qzeswl1d
Gotcha, I just heard that for digital goods it's normally a loss
prpcke1d
even if you can prove it
cdynjnlauru1d
honestly, try fighting a few chargebacks
nkqvhbhcoij1d
see what the response is and if they poke holes
apposv1d
I'm just gonnna give it a try to see if I lose it, shouldnt take too much time and I'll learn from it
jhjecuvcpqy1d
they'll at least vaguely tell you why you lost
tkauta1d
yep, thanks 🙂
xqipfv1d
one last question
mdtolp1d
I understand I should be addressing the final bank person and not Stripe's representative? I ask because Stripe emailed me saying I had a dispute saying "Your customer says they were charged after they canceled a subscription". which is bullshit since they just subscribed for the first time, i.e you get charged at the time to subscribe. There's no way to cancel something you haven't paid for yet. I'd understand this on a renewal but it's not the case. Is it worth explaining this at all?
serkcd1d
I assume bank representatives are familiar with subscription models... x)
vlttjrsuumc1d
explain, but keep it _very simple_
foaltlukvqz1d
they're probably going to look at it for a few seconds and make a decision, so don't make them put too much effort in
asfxhx1d
Stripe recommends trying to solve it with the person but I'm not sure it's worth emailing them nor what should I say, "hey you disputed a payment straight away, so i'm gonna fight back!"
zyrptg1d
ok
ohpnmhwabpm1d
trying to solve it with the person is a waste of time. they have to litterally call their bank and ask them to pause the dispute
sqlxyefexgj1d
whereas they can usually file a chargeback from a bank app in a minute or two
aatuqc1d
this is what happened to me the last 3 times, they agreed they were wrong but i still had to wait months to get the money back I assumed they never paused it
mfjkqymirwn1d
yeah
ghcbkcbraxt1d
if the customer agrees, you can use that as evidence, but i think you're better off just putting a very clcear disclaimer, having screenshots of it, etc
mvohdyulbkmpilra1d
lvfwbwn Your lost disputes are tracked, you don't want to lose disputes. If you lose a certain percentage of disputes over your total transactions, you can be shut down.
rsucwkccwzbjlbbm1d
Win percentage varies but it is usually 30-50%
nygodajvoit1d
^ very true, and the dispute threshhold is typically ~1% of transactions
kkyneadzwgn1d
above that and you're at risk
ujypcisbjvnyvnbb1d
They also track your win percentage so if you let them all go and your dispute win percentage drops to zero that will probably affect whether they rule against you.
hjkjsc1d
of total transactions with Stripe?
xxljcnbpfxy1d
yes
vusjns1d
I have a lot of transactions
ylwfej1d
like $5/mo payments and stuff
gpuccfknnex1d
quick exercise for you take a look at refunded vs non-refunded transactions and see what the stripe risk score is on average
ngnpfbpfayyetwxo1d
Why don't you have a refund policy?
muavvr1d
i'm not sure... it's totally a waste of time but it pissed me off that the app is free to try forever and charge for advanced features and people still come pay and then ask for refunds or like this person who disputes it straight away
tkghwo1d
qeibyczvxyenezzom I do, but who reads it?
pattfvuxsllzmurv1d
Do you offer a trial for the advanced features?
bbxkop1d
no
nzmemt1d
well, it's hard to answer, it's like a quota base model
zkhtfg1d
the most important limitation is quantity of X
hdqxxugahef1d
put a summary of the refund policy in a very obvious place if you want a higher chance of winning
ifmexozrtxc1d
something like that will increase your win percentage substantially
nhhxpq1d
Banks do check that to make their decisions?
lewpuo1d
i'll just try it and link everything
wkeicwqfsue1d
you put it as evidence that the customer was clearly shown the policy
vnqrhygkxpmehypj1d
For $5/mo payment, this is kind of horrible but essentially if you get people to forget about it they will probably leave it running and won't go through the effort of cancelling it. There have been some studies done to this affect.
ycmjtxrznjvnpgrw1d
That is why sometimes companies will give away 30 day trials for low subscription amounts because they know if they can get the people to forget about it, they probably won't cancel.
dbrhgi1d
qsebwfalezastuhej problem I have with refunds/disputes is not really recurring payments (I make it super easy to unsubscribe + send them an email) it's with people signing up, getting hyped, paying for the full premium and then 2 days afterwards ask for a refund.
knnbzcyxsqeviexp1d
You could try it out for say 7 days, give a 30 day trial and then roll it back. Then in 30 days see what percentage of those people stuck/refunded/etc..
xegstt1d
In that case, I normally gave a refund (even if it broke my policy) because Stripe didn't charge me.
huybyv1d
But now Stripe will start charging so I just say "hey, this is the refund policy, unless you had a tech issue, you've been using it...i'm sorry". But if people start disputing it maybe I should just refund it because $2 < $15.
pyltro1d
I guess the dispute I'm dealing with right now is quite the outlier... they disputed it straight away
wlimgthynoxacvhy1d
You will always have those people, I send receipts and cancellation instructions in the welcome email as well as documentation to unsubscribe and you will still get those people who don't read any of it.
unrxoswkcsnwpmyj1d
Or, and I hate this the most, people who feel the need to only cancel over the phone.
roiimc1d
that's why I'm like, ugh, I'm just gonna dispute it even if for peace of mind. x) After all I got the data.
dcwqpb1d
woah... those sound fun.
xghsryalkkvycjyg1d
I have a voice mail that says If you are calling to cancel please visit the site or send an email to X, there are still people that will go through other routes to talk to someone real that gives them the exact same instructions.
zwknjlaqjquglzhv1d
The cheaper the product, the more it will happen.
fihgzl1d
how do you deal with storing the data in this situations? F.e a user signs up uses the app for a month, subscribes and uses the app. Then they ask for a refund after a month or smth and they delete their account. Do you soft delete their account? Do you keep their email/name in case you need to prove it's them?
ndaycxeeynvizhfw1d
I don't delete anything unless they request me to do it directly.
ulmdavloagzihjko1d
I win disputes just by sending links to my refund/cancellation policy and then state, "Customer never attempt to contact us regarding cancellation"
ykevdorfkxfzhjzi1d
Have you ever went through a dispute process yourself?
lmiuix1d
but most of them do attempt to contact
djbpnc1d
as a customer you mean?
srlgebnnwlxxlvbe1d
Ya
swmbjw1d
nope
veebfv1d
but I assume they can appeal somehow to whatever I add in the dispute?
hkbhjpxslunhxibh1d
So essentially what happens is you are asked to provide proof (make your case) and then the company makes their case. A mediator who usually just a person looks at the case and makes a decision. So if you sound professional and the person sounds like a dick, you will probably win.
lckfooiddtjrecmr1d
No, neither side sees anything from the other side.
ypsbahwshsskgolu1d
It's not a back and forth. That is why you should have a cancellation/refund policy even if they don't read it, so you can link to it in your dispute response.
anoswz1d
yeah, makes sense
uzxchs1d
I'll just dispute it to learn the process. But I will try to avoid further disputes by giving refunds even if "unfair".
budnwn1d
(when the customer let's me know they want one, that is!)
oedpagzufahqjrfi1d
I imagine most people's disputes sound like this, "I DIDN'T AUTHORIZE THIS, IT IS FRAUD, THEY ARE STEALING FROM ME. I GOTZ BILLS TO PAY."
qzhxgysychzbqyel1d
or something.
txalvk1d
That's why I was wondering if Stripe's message was something to base my defense on
hgexfi1d
since it's not a renewal but a first payment it couldnt be canceled, just authorized
jjdlrnsuyapptxbm1d
When people come up with a reason, they have a couple options Fraud, didn't receive, requested cancellation etc..
iljlefyshlejkviy1d
The Fraud ones are usually the easiest to win because people don't realize that fraud is usually reserved for someone else using their card. So if you have the same email they sent the dispute with, they will almost always lose.
cqotwa1d
i see
tkrwfvpazvyklsof1d
(people can be dumb)
esqqjs1d
yeah, hmm I'm gonna give it a try and learn if I have any chances for future disputes. So that I learn if it's worth just refunding even when the users are at fault breaking the refund policy.
uakbsncqvonkbaya1d
because the mediator will be like, you are claiming fraud but the company has your email address. Kind of strange that someone stole your credit card and used your email address to sign up.
lwifey1d
yep makes sense
gxpokb1d
we live in a complex world
fgrerz1d
i'll change the button text to Are you fucking sure you want to pay?
ulslaa1d
Money that could be used to buy toilet paper in these difficult times will be extracted forever from your account, do you want to proceed?
diwvzx3h
well, that was a damn wasted evening but fuck me if I haven't put up the strongest case ever for $29.99, I've collected more proof than Sherlock Holmes in all his books together
aqcbks3h
I'm quite confident that I'll win this dispute yeahh fuckk yeaahhh feels good to have wasted 4 hours for this retarded sum (+15€)
jmvjek3h
xDD
kwykew3h
also I'm never doing this shit again
lnrbya3h
for some reason this shit feels good
scvmda3h
it's like if you caught a pickpocketer trying to pickpcoket you
eicirlmjcskkjbpq2h
tmgdbfy Well the idea is to try to automate it or make it so you can collect all the data.
frtzpx25min
yeah, wrote a little protocol in case it happens again
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