Startups Chat

mawuhbezljg1d

and then model out Refund vs wait for chargeback

wnvsplumrqo1d

and consider chargeback protection if it's a high enough rate

lvdtmqerdwh1d

or pay the extra $0.02/transaction for the advanced radar features to stop some of those transactions before they happen

hhultp1d

so... sorry that I insist just making sure I get this right.. once someone puts a dispute, since you are already have to pay the chargeback (unless you win) why would you not dispute it? I get it, you would not dispute it if the time to dispute it is worth more than the chargeback. Now I get what you were saying with the high chargebacks.

xoyfzhnnpci1d

right

frxgydgflyg1d

easy example Restaurant with 2-3 chargebacks per day across $50+ locations

tdvhecqjesv1d

chargeback is often 'goods not received', which means going throguh camera footage and tying to the right customer to prove they did receieve it

rosecslvzvf1d

way too much effort, you're better off just accepting the $15 fee

teoahltthuu1d

for a digital subscription, your ability to fight and have good evidence is way higher

qzeswl1d

Gotcha, I just heard that for digital goods it's normally a loss

prpcke1d

even if you can prove it

cdynjnlauru1d

honestly, try fighting a few chargebacks

nkqvhbhcoij1d

see what the response is and if they poke holes

apposv1d

I'm just gonnna give it a try to see if I lose it, shouldnt take too much time and I'll learn from it

jhjecuvcpqy1d

they'll at least vaguely tell you why you lost

tkauta1d

yep, thanks 🙂

xqipfv1d

one last question

mdtolp1d

I understand I should be addressing the final bank person and not Stripe's representative? I ask because Stripe emailed me saying I had a dispute saying "Your customer says they were charged after they canceled a subscription". which is bullshit since they just subscribed for the first time, i.e you get charged at the time to subscribe. There's no way to cancel something you haven't paid for yet. I'd understand this on a renewal but it's not the case. Is it worth explaining this at all?

serkcd1d

I assume bank representatives are familiar with subscription models... x)

vlttjrsuumc1d

explain, but keep it _very simple_

foaltlukvqz1d

they're probably going to look at it for a few seconds and make a decision, so don't make them put too much effort in

asfxhx1d

Stripe recommends trying to solve it with the person but I'm not sure it's worth emailing them nor what should I say, "hey you disputed a payment straight away, so i'm gonna fight back!"

zyrptg1d

ohpnmhwabpm1d

trying to solve it with the person is a waste of time. they have to litterally call their bank and ask them to pause the dispute

sqlxyefexgj1d

whereas they can usually file a chargeback from a bank app in a minute or two

aatuqc1d

this is what happened to me the last 3 times, they agreed they were wrong but i still had to wait months to get the money back I assumed they never paused it

mfjkqymirwn1d

yeah

ghcbkcbraxt1d

if the customer agrees, you can use that as evidence, but i think you're better off just putting a very clcear disclaimer, having screenshots of it, etc

mvohdyulbkmpilra1d

lvfwbwn Your lost disputes are tracked, you don't want to lose disputes. If you lose a certain percentage of disputes over your total transactions, you can be shut down.

rsucwkccwzbjlbbm1d

Win percentage varies but it is usually 30-50%

nygodajvoit1d

^ very true, and the dispute threshhold is typically ~1% of transactions

kkyneadzwgn1d

above that and you're at risk

ujypcisbjvnyvnbb1d

They also track your win percentage so if you let them all go and your dispute win percentage drops to zero that will probably affect whether they rule against you.

hjkjsc1d

of total transactions with Stripe?

xxljcnbpfxy1d

yes

vusjns1d

I have a lot of transactions

ylwfej1d

like $5/mo payments and stuff

gpuccfknnex1d

quick exercise for you take a look at refunded vs non-refunded transactions and see what the stripe risk score is on average

ngnpfbpfayyetwxo1d

Why don't you have a refund policy?

muavvr1d

i'm not sure... it's totally a waste of time but it pissed me off that the app is free to try forever and charge for advanced features and people still come pay and then ask for refunds or like this person who disputes it straight away

tkghwo1d

qeibyczvxyenezzom I do, but who reads it?

pattfvuxsllzmurv1d

Do you offer a trial for the advanced features?

bbxkop1d

nzmemt1d

well, it's hard to answer, it's like a quota base model

zkhtfg1d

the most important limitation is quantity of X

hdqxxugahef1d

put a summary of the refund policy in a very obvious place if you want a higher chance of winning

ifmexozrtxc1d

something like that will increase your win percentage substantially

nhhxpq1d

Banks do check that to make their decisions?

lewpuo1d

i'll just try it and link everything

wkeicwqfsue1d

you put it as evidence that the customer was clearly shown the policy

vnqrhygkxpmehypj1d

For $5/mo payment, this is kind of horrible but essentially if you get people to forget about it they will probably leave it running and won't go through the effort of cancelling it. There have been some studies done to this affect.

ycmjtxrznjvnpgrw1d

That is why sometimes companies will give away 30 day trials for low subscription amounts because they know if they can get the people to forget about it, they probably won't cancel.

dbrhgi1d

qsebwfalezastuhej problem I have with refunds/disputes is not really recurring payments (I make it super easy to unsubscribe + send them an email) it's with people signing up, getting hyped, paying for the full premium and then 2 days afterwards ask for a refund.

knnbzcyxsqeviexp1d

You could try it out for say 7 days, give a 30 day trial and then roll it back. Then in 30 days see what percentage of those people stuck/refunded/etc..

xegstt1d

In that case, I normally gave a refund (even if it broke my policy) because Stripe didn't charge me.

huybyv1d

But now Stripe will start charging so I just say "hey, this is the refund policy, unless you had a tech issue, you've been using it...i'm sorry". But if people start disputing it maybe I should just refund it because $2 < $15.

pyltro1d

I guess the dispute I'm dealing with right now is quite the outlier... they disputed it straight away

wlimgthynoxacvhy1d

You will always have those people, I send receipts and cancellation instructions in the welcome email as well as documentation to unsubscribe and you will still get those people who don't read any of it.

unrxoswkcsnwpmyj1d

Or, and I hate this the most, people who feel the need to only cancel over the phone.

roiimc1d

that's why I'm like, ugh, I'm just gonna dispute it even if for peace of mind. x) After all I got the data.

dcwqpb1d

woah... those sound fun.

xghsryalkkvycjyg1d

I have a voice mail that says If you are calling to cancel please visit the site or send an email to X, there are still people that will go through other routes to talk to someone real that gives them the exact same instructions.

zwknjlaqjquglzhv1d

The cheaper the product, the more it will happen.

fihgzl1d

how do you deal with storing the data in this situations? F.e a user signs up uses the app for a month, subscribes and uses the app. Then they ask for a refund after a month or smth and they delete their account. Do you soft delete their account? Do you keep their email/name in case you need to prove it's them?

ndaycxeeynvizhfw1d

I don't delete anything unless they request me to do it directly.

ulmdavloagzihjko1d

I win disputes just by sending links to my refund/cancellation policy and then state, "Customer never attempt to contact us regarding cancellation"

ykevdorfkxfzhjzi1d

Have you ever went through a dispute process yourself?

lmiuix1d

but most of them do attempt to contact

djbpnc1d

as a customer you mean?

srlgebnnwlxxlvbe1d

swmbjw1d

nope

veebfv1d

but I assume they can appeal somehow to whatever I add in the dispute?

hkbhjpxslunhxibh1d

So essentially what happens is you are asked to provide proof (make your case) and then the company makes their case. A mediator who usually just a person looks at the case and makes a decision. So if you sound professional and the person sounds like a dick, you will probably win.

lckfooiddtjrecmr1d

No, neither side sees anything from the other side.

ypsbahwshsskgolu1d

It's not a back and forth. That is why you should have a cancellation/refund policy even if they don't read it, so you can link to it in your dispute response.

anoswz1d

yeah, makes sense

uzxchs1d

I'll just dispute it to learn the process. But I will try to avoid further disputes by giving refunds even if "unfair".

budnwn1d

(when the customer let's me know they want one, that is!)

oedpagzufahqjrfi1d

I imagine most people's disputes sound like this, "I DIDN'T AUTHORIZE THIS, IT IS FRAUD, THEY ARE STEALING FROM ME. I GOTZ BILLS TO PAY."

qzhxgysychzbqyel1d

or something.

txalvk1d

That's why I was wondering if Stripe's message was something to base my defense on

hgexfi1d

since it's not a renewal but a first payment it couldnt be canceled, just authorized

jjdlrnsuyapptxbm1d

When people come up with a reason, they have a couple options Fraud, didn't receive, requested cancellation etc..

iljlefyshlejkviy1d

The Fraud ones are usually the easiest to win because people don't realize that fraud is usually reserved for someone else using their card. So if you have the same email they sent the dispute with, they will almost always lose.

cqotwa1d

i see

tkrwfvpazvyklsof1d

(people can be dumb)

esqqjs1d

yeah, hmm I'm gonna give it a try and learn if I have any chances for future disputes. So that I learn if it's worth just refunding even when the users are at fault breaking the refund policy.

uakbsncqvonkbaya1d

because the mediator will be like, you are claiming fraud but the company has your email address. Kind of strange that someone stole your credit card and used your email address to sign up.

lwifey1d

yep makes sense

gxpokb1d

we live in a complex world

fgrerz1d

i'll change the button text to Are you fucking sure you want to pay?

ulslaa1d

Money that could be used to buy toilet paper in these difficult times will be extracted forever from your account, do you want to proceed?

diwvzx3h

well, that was a damn wasted evening but fuck me if I haven't put up the strongest case ever for $29.99, I've collected more proof than Sherlock Holmes in all his books together

aqcbks3h

I'm quite confident that I'll win this dispute yeahh fuckk yeaahhh feels good to have wasted 4 hours for this retarded sum (+15€)

jmvjek3h

xDD

kwykew3h

also I'm never doing this shit again

lnrbya3h

for some reason this shit feels good

scvmda3h

it's like if you caught a pickpocketer trying to pickpcoket you

eicirlmjcskkjbpq2h

tmgdbfy Well the idea is to try to automate it or make it so you can collect all the data.