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What does "full time" really mean when working remotely?


by @kltellim | 6yr  | 12 comments

This one is for those of you who have full-time remote jobs. I noticed @wanderingdev mentioned being an FTE for a US company, hoping she may be able to weigh in here.

I have a very nice remote programming job. Great team, and the whole teamโ€™s distributed. Iโ€™ve been working remotely for years now โ€“ but never as a developer. I used to do more writing-related jobs, where you get paid by the word, and hours donโ€™t matter.

As a coder, Iโ€™m suddenly paid by the hour. I am not a โ€œconsultantโ€ - but I still find it very confusing and troubling, and Iโ€™m trying to nail down some norms. Iโ€™m supposed to be โ€œfull timeโ€, which basically means 40 hours/week or so (43, but whoโ€™s counting).

I have a timer I use (nobody asked me to use it, and I donโ€™t share the time report with anyone). I used to stop the timer whenever I went to the kitchen for a moment or to help with the kid. Working like this, an 8-hour day quickly became a 13-hour day. Meaning, it took me 13-14 hours to get 8 hours of work done, and it was pretty terrible.

I decided to do a sanity check with a colleague whom I have good rapport with. Heโ€™s a senior dev whoโ€™s been with the company for years. He said that in an 8-hour day, he usually manages to get in about 4 hours of โ€œbillable timeโ€ โ€“ meaning, about half his time is spent actually working, and the other half is doing other things, which he says is important to stay creative/fresh and not burn out (I definitely see the sense in this).

He told me that when he used to be a consultant, he used to charge exactly per what he actually worked โ€“ but then he doubled his rates to make up for it. (I donโ€™t get a ton of money, Iโ€™m not a very experienced coder, and Iโ€™m not considered a consultant by any stretch of the imagination)

Soโ€ฆ I decided to cast a wider net here, just as a sanity/reality check. As remote programmers, how do you manage your time? What does an โ€œ8 hour workdayโ€ look like for you, in reality?

Do you have a timer? When you watch a YouTube video, do you stop your timer? Etc. etc.
When working at an office itโ€™s easy to get a fix for the norms - but working from home, you guys are what I have. :slight_smile: TIA.

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@jtompl | 6yr

Iโ€™ve been working as a freelance web developer for about 6 years now in Results-Only Work Environment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROWE). Iโ€™ve been using Toggl ~4-5 years ago, but later on I dropped itโ€ฆ and thatโ€™s too bad, because lately I could see that I waste a lot of my time on things I shouldnโ€™t (like multitasking; switching to reading blogs/facebook during the work time, etc.).

3 months ago I started using time tracking tool again (Everhour this time - honestly recommend it). It was weird to me in the beginning to โ€œkeep tracking everythingโ€, but after a couple of days I got used - and now I see that my work efficiency is much better.

Mostly because now when I have Everhour tracking me, I donโ€™t multitask anymore (as you need to specify in Everhour โ€œwhat task are you working on currentlyโ€). So youโ€™ve got this feeling โ€œoh the tracking is on, I got to finish it soonโ€.
And even if the tracking wonโ€™t be always accurate (as uโ€™ll forget to turn it on/off sometimes), more or less it will give you a nice view over the things youโ€™ve been during the last month. And maybe give you some thoughts about your project hourly rates? :wink:

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Depending on whether youโ€™re an hourly employee/contractor, a salaried full time employee, or paid on a project basis, thereโ€™s a world of difference with regards to how you approach the hours of the day.

Hourly employees and contractors are paid for their time. In theory this translates into billable hours in a day, but in practice it doesnโ€™t, really. An oft-cited study ten years ago found that the average office worker only had three productive workdays out of five (60%) (http://news.microsoft.com/2005/03/15/survey-finds-workers-average-only-three-productive-days-per-week/). Other similar studies since have estimated that number even lower โ€” as low as 37.5% in some regions and sectors. Too often you hear office workers complain about feeling like cogs or drones, paid to keep their seat warm for eight hours a day and deriving little satisfaction from the job.

Now, as digital nomads, thatโ€™s not our narrative, and in fact many of us chose this life because we wanted to escape or avoid that reality. However, for the vast majority of office workers, including the people we often work with, report to, and get paid by, thatโ€™s their life. So the challenge is ensuring that they believe that working with us is a productive, valuable, integral use of their companyโ€™s resources despite the fact that they themselves often waste them.

For those of us working on a project basis, or in a Results-Only Work Environment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROWE), itโ€™s pretty simple โ€” you need to deliver consistent quality on time. Thatโ€™s it. Nothing else matters. Itโ€™d be the same whether you go into the office every day, work from home a few miles away a few days a week, or work from another timezone all the time.

For those of us paid by the hour, itโ€™s a lot more challenging โ€” not so much because of the time tracking itself, but because of how critical it is for us to manage the perception of what we do with our time. Depending on the expectations of your employer or client, you may need to keep the kinds of logs attorneys keep โ€” obscenely detailed journals that break time down into quarter-hour increments, and log what filled that time, whether itโ€™s spent performing research (searching for libraries, digesting technical manuals, reading relevant blog posts and articles), operations management (fielding emails, phone meetings) or actual production (writing code, documentation, articles, designing graphics, or whatever it is that you do). And again, depending on the expectations of whoever signs your checks, you may want to do this even if youโ€™re on salary, to document the fact that you actually work and combat the perception of you being on a permanent vacation.

If youโ€™re a line coder, production artist, specification writer or something similarly โ€œoutput-centric,โ€ where the thrust of your work is geared toward production in a fairly well-defined environment, itโ€™s pretty straightforward โ€” production artistsโ€™ billable time is divided between sourcing typefaces and graphic materials, researching visual language, manipulating assets and pushing pixels, line coders are paid to intake task backlogs, research patterns, read framework and API documentation, write code, run unit tests and update buglists.

However, the more generative/inspirational/creative your work is, the more difficult it can be to explain where your billable time went. I donโ€™t mean โ€œcreativeโ€ as in โ€œdesigners, artists and writers onlyโ€ โ€” every high-level software architect will tell you that many of the best ideas for their software designs come to them when theyโ€™re away from the keyboard, and software architecture is a highly generstive/inspirstional/creative field. So, yes, those thirty minutes you stepped away from the computer to wash dishes and think about how to optimize the speed of that tricky recursive function โ€” thatโ€™s billable time. Track it as such. The word โ€œconceptualizingโ€ appears on my time log pretty frequently.

As far as tracking itself, I donโ€™t log as-I-go, but rather at the end of each workday, but thatโ€™s just how I roll. I think back and ask myself โ€œWhat did I do today? Well, I spent about an hour updating the user flow diagram, an hour conceptualizing the interaction model, three and a half hours drawing wireframes, an hour writing annotations, an hour on a conference call, and half an hour managing email. So thatโ€™s eight hours of billable time.โ€ Yeah, I may have spread those eight hours of work across twelve hours of the day, but that isnโ€™t relevant. My output in a given workday typically far exceeds the average office workersโ€™ output, my clients see that, consider it a great value, and keep paying me to do it.

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@eelcojellema | 6yr

The contracts Iโ€™ve seen being used all said just fulltime. No number of hours attached. Itโ€™s useless really. No one wants to work between fixed hours, nor can he/she work always 40 hours. Donโ€™t focus on the hours, but on agreed output.
What it usually means is: if you work with us you canโ€™t have another job without a burnout in no time.

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@kltellim | 6yr

Yeah โ€“ thatโ€™s one approach I really disagree withโ€ฆ It actually had language to this effect in a previous contract which I refused to sign.

I think of it this way: When working at an office, I can still go back home and have a side project at the end of the day or on weekends, right? Soโ€ฆ why canโ€™t I do the same when I work FT remotely?

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@angsmith | 6yr

I work full-time for a US company too, salaried. Iโ€™m leading product & design so honestly, I work crazy hours (70+ p/w). Like @wanderingdev I match up with San Francisco, so I work 7am - 7pm PST. We have a few remote developers in Ukraine too so it means I have to stay on a bit later in the evenings to manage the timezones.

I donโ€™t think anyone is 100% productive/working during their entire day. Iโ€™ve tried pomodoro too, but I never stuck with it. I just manage priorities & focus on single tasks until theyโ€™re complete - multitasking is a killer of efficiency/productivity.

I try not to work from home as much as possible because Iโ€™m the type of person that gets really distracted if I do - I just end up getting up & walking around aimlessly. I love coworking spaces, but quieter ones where I donโ€™t have to introduce myself to 50 people each day & tell them what Iโ€™m working on etc. I just like to get in in the morning, put my headphones in for 8 hrs & work uninterrupted.

That said, Iโ€™ve just returned back to Australia & am staying with my Mum, so Iโ€™m back in the same boat of having to manage working from home. Iโ€™ve already checked the fridge 5 times today & Iโ€™m not even hungry :slight_smile:

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@kirkbeard | 6yr

In the past, when I worked remotely as a FTE, I was required to log 8 hours per day (or 40 hours per week). We were given 20% for research/learning so we were required to complete 6~ hours of billable work each day.

Some days I would be able to write code for 12 hours straight, fixing bug reports, adding new features and just getting stuff done. Other days, I couldnโ€™t code to save my life. I would just make sure that I would get my 40~ hours of work done per week.

On the days I couldnโ€™t get into a rhythm with the code, I wouldnโ€™t try to force it. I would head to the gym, watch a movie, or just clean the house. It was quite often in that downtime that I came up with a solution to a problem Iโ€™d been trying to fix for hours. That time away from the keyboard can be quite useful when it comes to getting work done.

Over time, youโ€™ll get used to the way that you work best. That ten minute break in the kitchen to wash the dishes or clean up might not affect your work too much at all, especially when youโ€™re still mulling over the code in the back of your mind.

I use Harvest App for tracking my time these days (as a freelancer), which automatically detects idle time. When I return to the computer, the app asks me if Iโ€™d like to continue the timer, or remove that idle time. Only I know whether that time should be considered billable, so I update my timesheet as required.

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@skatkov | 6yr

I consider 30h a week a full time work. I have a timer, which also catches my activity. But I also include all the communications regarding a project as billable/and other activity. So, itโ€™s not like โ€˜focused coding on a project for 6 hours a dayโ€™.

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@kirkbeard | 6yr

Thatโ€™s a good point I forgot to mention. The billable time for me also included project management and various other non-coding tasks.

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@shaked | 6yr

I am pretty new in the DNโ€™s world but I assume its more or less the same as working in an office and its all about managing your time and tasks correctly.

When you work in an office, you are getting paid for your work but also for drinking coffee, taking a break (e.g cigaret break, fuzball break etc). You are also getting paid for having โ€œdead momentsโ€ where you read something that maybe serves both you and your company by improving your skills or zooming out from your current project just in order to be more fresh. I think that most of the people do not work 8 hours although they are 8 hours at work. The idea of being at work so much time is mainly about being available for the rest of the people because many times you can finish your work (in case you really know what needs to be done and you donโ€™t have any dependency in other people) in less than 8 hours.

Point is, if you manage your time and tasks clearly, you would notice that things can be done faster. I wouldnโ€™t stop the timer while drinking coffee or taking a 5-10 minutes break though I would stop it in case of something that takes more.

Pomodoro is a great solution as @wanderingdev mentioned.

Shaked

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@kltellim | 6yr

Thank you, Shaked! Thatโ€™s a good viewpoint, and is definitely helpful.

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@wanderingdev | 6yr

I am salary, not hourly, so my answer is probably a little different. I am officially available to my team from 9:30am-5:30pm EST. Some days Iโ€™m nose down that entire time. Some days Iโ€™m farting around with other stuff. Some days I start earlier and/or work later. Some times Iโ€™m doing stuff on the weekend when I get an idea. It all works out in the wash.

As an hourly person, unless you get to set your billable rate, I donโ€™t think 8 hours billed has to = 8 hours worked because it certainly doesnโ€™t when youโ€™re in an office. Have you tried using something like pomodoro where you can work for 25 minutes then mess around for 5? Then you can do those step away things or video watching without feeling guilty.

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@kltellim | 6yr

Oops, I think I said something confusing there โ€“ I wrote โ€œAs a coder, Iโ€™m suddenly paid by the hour.โ€ I didnโ€™t mean to imply Iโ€™m actually an hourly worker โ€“ I am FT, salary, too.

What I meant to say is that Iโ€™m paid for my time, rather than for a deliverable such as an article or a blog post.

Your reply was interesting to read, and is pretty much in line with what I got from two teammates I spoke to (one is new to the team but a good friend, and the other I mentioned in my original post).

I did try Pomodoro for a little bit, and I really dislike it. It totally breaks my flow โ€“ it wonโ€™t let me get into the task Iโ€™m working on. I keep thinking about the end of those 25 minutes, andโ€ฆ bah, just doesnโ€™t work for me.

I think I need to grow up. :slight_smile: Thank you.

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Read and participate in 13,975 discussions on Nomad List

Suggested topics

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How do you ensure that you have good WiFi for working whilst travelling e.g. in places like India?


in India by @davda1546 | 29d 28 days ago | 4 comments

We are hoping to travel later this year and we will be working remotely - how do you ensure you get good WiFi in places such as in India where the signal isn't always great? Do you have any tips on where to go/ what equipment you have to get?

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Any attorneys working remotely?


by @rohitsn | 2mo 1 month ago | 3 comments

Transactional Attorney with a focus on US Immigration. Burnt out doing the law firm thing. Trying to leverage skill to get on this digital nomad tip. Love the traveling experience, hostels, seeing new places, new cocktails etc etc.

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What do you use to work together remotely?


by @artofwarbiz | 4mo 3 months ago | 6 comments

What do you use to work together remotely with your team?

I know Slack, Hipchat and Hall.

Which ones do you guys use and why?

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Any nomads working on startups?

 

by @mattlock | 4mo 3 months ago | 33 comments

Hoping to see all the cool stuff people are working on while they live an extraordinary life.

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What have been your biggest challenges working remotely in your team?


by @wanderer | 4mo 3 months ago | 2 comments

My interest in DN lifestyle started when half of our company have been taking 1 month for remote work @ Ko Samui. It was truly cool but we observed quite some communication challenges. Communication seemed just โ€œriskierโ€ when online.

What were your worst situations caused by misunderstanding while communicating online with your teammates? What do you do to avoid misunderstandings?

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What's the first step now that I can work remotely?


by @mariaplslourdes | 10mo 10 months ago | 4 comments

Hi everyone and nice to e-meet you!
finally, after so long I found a job that allows me to work remotely.
But now? Do you have any practical advice that I can use to approach this new world?
In particular, I have to put my tax situation in order, do you know a good tax advisor from whom I can ask for advice? (Iโ€™m Italian but I live in Franceโ€ฆI donโ€™t know how long it will beโ€ฆ) )
Beyond that, any advice is welcome.
Thank you!
Maria

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Greece- WIFI- how is it really?


in Greece by @amandamay | 1yr 1 year ago | 0 comments

We are leaving for Greece in 60 days and need good wifi for the 3 months we plan on staying there, this is a must! Iโ€™ve heard mixed reviews and the 8-10 ranking on nomadlist are not super encouraging. Has anyone recently worked from there? What should we expect? We plan on renting an apartment after staying in airbnb and would like to work from the place we are staying in. Thanks so much for helping me decide if we can continue on or change plans.

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Co-working space in Shanghai WITHOUT monthly payment


in Shanghai, China by @katrin | 1yr 1 year ago | 0 comments

Daily/hourly pass needed.
Canโ€™t work in normal cafรฉ because having clientโ€™s laptop for security reasons, canโ€™t use open networks. Working for R&D. Also laptop is so huge it doesnโ€™t fit normal cafe environment because itโ€™s far from discreet.

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What are the most comfortable and affordable coworking places in Amsterdam?


in Amsterdam, Netherlands by @frosay | 2yr 1 year ago | 2 comments

What are the most comfortable and affordable coworking places in Amsterdam?
I donโ€™t like noisy cafes and high prices of Spaces.

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Is there any good and safe coworking space with fast internet in Costa Rica?


in Costa Rica by @sven | 2yr 1 year ago | 7 comments

Everything is in the title.

Iโ€™m working on a big project so I will need fast internet (>15 mbps).
If itโ€™s close to the beach, it would be even better.

Thanks !!

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What are the best coworking spaces in Playa del Carmen, Mexico?


in Playa del Carmen, Mexico by @simone_scarduzio | 2yr 1 year ago | 1 comment

Would you recommend โ€œWork Zoneโ€ http://www.oficinasplaya.com over Nest?
Do you have other coworking spaces there you would recommend?

And where is a good place to stay (i.e. coliving)?

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Foreigner owned Coworking business in Malaysia


in Malaysia by @newyam | 2yr 1 year ago | 0 comments

Heyo folks! The idea to open up an own coworking space in Malaysia has been on my mind for quite a while and I would like to reach out on foreigners being a business owner/co working space owner in Malaysia, there are a lot of questions that would follow up but most importantly is to reach out to someone with experience.

Ideally would be someone who runs a coworking space in Malaysia, second best would be to just come in touch with a foreign business owner in Malaysia.
Cheers
Yamin

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Is there a US bank for easily creating new business checking accounts remotely?

 

by @tylertringas | 2yr 1 year ago | 23 comments

Every accountant is going to tell you that you really should be keeping separate accounts for all your businesses and even projects that may one day become businesses. But in my experience setting up a new account associated with an actual business entity is a pretty annoying process involving an in-person visit to a bank branch, proof of residence in that branchโ€™s region, etc. Has anybody seen a bank that letโ€™s you easily create a simple business checking account online and more importantly that would let you add additional accounts and transfer funds between them?

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How do you manage working in different time zones?


by @clusk | 2yr 1 year ago | 12 comments

For those constrained by their businessโ€™ time zone, how do you manage this?

My home office is in Los Angeles โ€“ though I could swing anything in Central/South America, Iโ€™m looking at going to Lisbon or Chiang Mai for a bit. Both of them are >=8hrs difference potentially wreaking havoc on the work + social life + sleep split. This is a common question for nomads but there doesnโ€™t seem to be a lot of posting on the site about it.

What do you guys think? Any Americans working in Asia or Europe that does it well? I could likely negotiate with my supervisor to work in Eastern standard if I was in Lisbon/Europe, which wouldnโ€™t be too much of a stretch. Noon 'til 8pm. A bit more manageable than Chiang Mai or Bali.

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Best cafes in Budapest for working?


in Budapest, Hungary by @dobredecatalin | 2yr 1 year ago | 3 comments

Hi there, I am planning to work remote from Budapest for about 3 weeks. I typically like to work from Starbucks so I wanted to find out which ones are the largest and better for working.

The ones that I found so far that seem a bit bigger are this ones:
goo.gl/maps/y9kFXwAc2NA2
goo.gl/maps/hUUg9ghtr8K2

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Where can I go for remote working while surrounded by nature (ocean waves, mountain, etc)


by @nish81 | 2yr 1 year ago | 7 comments

I have this dream scenario in my head, and Iโ€™ve searched for a while without figuring out how I might best achieve it. I donโ€™t need many places, just one or two that I can go back to over and over again. I want to be working on my laptop while being surrounded by nature; for example a place right on the ocean where I can hear the waves crashing and look up and see them, then look back down and go back to work (but it would have to be very close by to achieve this feeling, not a distant sea view).

In itself this might not be so hard but my total list of requirements makes it difficult:

  • Fast internet: at least 20Mbps down with ethernet connection possible.
  • Very close to emergency medical services: so not in the middle of nowhere, and ideally in/very close to a decent size town (I have some medical issues)
  • Not more than ยฃ70/night to stay
  • It doesnโ€™t have to be a residence: it can also be a coworking space that meets all these requirements, and I can stay somewhere else and work at this space

So far I thought of Las Palmas de Gran Canaria: there seem to be some flats with a nice ocean view, although Iโ€™m not sure how close to the ocean they can get. And maybe also Valencia?

Anyway, Iโ€™m not sure if anybody else has had this kind of dream as well. But I would very much appreciate any tips for places I can check out :slight_smile:

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Coworking in Merida?


in Merida, Mexico by @jasoninbend | 2yr 2 years ago | 0 comments

Any recommendations for a coworking spot in Merida, MX? Iโ€™ll be staying in the Centro zone for most of July. Thanks in advance!

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Coworking spaces in Goa (India)


in India by @adrienbetweets | 2yr 2 years ago | 2 comments

Does anyone know of any decent coworking spaces in Goa (India) ?

Looks like a very fun place to live for a few months. I havenโ€™t been there myself yet but keep hearing very good things about it.

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Best coworking space in Medellin?


in Medellรญn, Colombia by @adele | 2yr 2 years ago | 6 comments

Hi there,

Iโ€™m considering a month or two in Medellin and wondered what the co-working space options are like. I want something more than a cafe, so happy to pay the going rate. I spent a couple of months at Hubud in Bali earlier this year and loved it, but realise that Iโ€™ve set the bar pretty high.

Has anyone used Epicenter? I read somewhere it is pretty busy. Any other options?

Suggestions much appreciated.

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Coworking spaces in Osaka?


in Osaka, Japan by @adrienbetweets | 2yr 2 years ago | 5 comments

Iโ€™m looking for a good coworking space in Osaka.

There are a few listed on coworker.com & workfrom.co, however, none of them has reviews.

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